Piotr Mikołajski Author
Here is the first fixed entry: Fairey Battle Mk.I (Azur-FRROM FR0047, 1:72)

scalemates Author
I can bulk fix all and auto correct in the future

Mikel
There was no separate polish airforce in the uk.
Most pilots, after the Soviet invasion of Poland on 17 September, escaped via Romania and Hungary to continue fighting throughout World War II in allied air forces, first in France, then in Britain, and later also the Soviet Union.

The polish squadrons, and those of other countries, were part of the raf. That's a fact.
Scalemates is better off without patriotic political ideas.

Auto correct? Who decides what is correct? Pjotr? Xi?
Or what if Pjotr proposed to change all rocaf in chinese airforce?
And do we really need to give "protection" to people who try to rewrite history?

Moderators, better stay far away from these "fixes" and auto corrections.

scalemates Author
2 different opinions which is ok!

… we figure out constructively what the correct version is. Based on that we autocorrect for consistency (Just like we autocorrect RAF to Royal Air Force or Sq. to Sqn. …)

Please let me know what is correct and i'll bulkfix where appropriate.

Piotr Mikołajski Author
Well... no, these are not two equal opinions. My comment is based on the agreements signed between Poland and the UK, not on someone's imaginations based on virtually no one knows what.

The Allied Forces Act, 1940 recognised the governments in exile of countries then occupied by the Third Reich (initially Belgium, Czechoslovakia, the Netherlands, Norway and Poland plus Free French forces, later Luxembourg, Greece and Yugoslavia were added) and granted them the right to build their own national armies on the UK territory. This is legally and organisationally quite different from merely supplying manpower to British units.

We may see it in the parliamentary reading of Allied Powers (War Service) Act 1942 from official UK Parliament website:
api.parliament.uk/hi..ers-war-service-bill

"This Bill may, I think, be fittingly described as the last link in the chain of novel but appropriate legislation which has been designed to meet the situation arising from the presence in England of seven independent sovereign Allied Governments, namely, the Polish, Dutch, Belgian, Greek, Norwegian, Yugo-Slav and Czechoslovak Governments. Parliament has already passed the Allied Forces Act, 1940, which enabled Allied Governments to maintain discipline among persons already serving in their own forces; also, the Diplomatic Privileges (Extension) Act, 1941, which provided proper status for the personnel of Allied Governments; and also the Allied Powers (Marine Courts) Act, 1941, which enabled the Allied Governments to maintain discipline in their own ships and also to direct their seamen to go to sea. This Bill is designed to complete the series. The House will be aware that it is the declared policy of His Majesty's Government towards these Governments that we should give every possible facility to them to continue their administration from the hospitality of British soil. They all possess and are actually developing national Armed Forces which are giving the most valuable services to the Allied cause, and I am sure that the House would wish to pay this tribute to the efforts which the Allied Governments have made in this respect. It needed great courage amid all their tribulations to set to work to reconstitute their own Armed Forces on land, at sea and in the air, and we in this country have been thrilled to read from time to time in the Press reports of their gallant exploits in battle."

Since it is stated time and again in the parliamentary discussion that these were independent governments, building independent armed forces on British territory, I think it is fair to assume, however, that those involved in the discussion knew what they were talking about. Particularly as the acts passed in 1940 and 1942 say the same thing.

Of course, this is confirmed by a number of other factors - the ships of the Polish Navy did not have HMS in their name, but ORP, meaning that this is "Ship of the Republic of Poland". Also, none of the Polish squadrons had RAF in their name, instead they had the information that it was a Polish unit, like No. 300 (Polish) Squadron.

Even article in "Flight" from 1942 says clearly:

"The independence of the Polish Air Force as part of the Polish armed forces is shown by the existence of the Inspectorate of the Polish Air Force, which is the nucleus of the future command of the Air Force in Poland. The Inspector of the Polish Air Force is directly subordinate to the C. in C."

I can throw in other legislation or quotes from discussions of the time or articles from the press, but it seems to me that this is enough to show that Polish squadrons (as well as units of the other countries mentioned above) were part of their own national military formations.

If anyone wants to claim to the contrary, I expect him to point to British wartime legislation contradicting those I have quoted above. It seems to me that since this is supposed to be a discussion on facts, the legal acts stand supreme - I have provided legislation to support my position.

Jorge Ferreira
Never realy thought to much about this part of WWII history but I always thought about something like this regarding to the foreign pilots flying in England during the war. I believe Piotr is right although I think they were all one Air Force and all acted under the same comand . One thing I`m sure they were all heros.

Piotr Mikołajski Author
Yes, all these countries put their own independent national air forces under joint British command, but that was, after all, what the alliance against Hitler was all about. We all fought together, under one command, often far from our own homeland.

It was for this reason that one Polish pilot did the calculations and carried out a test flight in a Mustang attacking Stavenger, allowing Allied aviation to begin attacking targets in Norway and the Ruhr. And that's why our South African allies flew with airdrops of weapons for the Warsaw insurgents. And that's why you could find a Belgian squadron in Nigeria and Greek and Yugoslav squadrons in Africa, while Poles and Czechs patrolled the Atlantic, hunting U-Boats.

Anyway, the history of the Second World War is much more complicated. There was no state of war between Poland and Italy, and yet the Polish Navy fought in the Mediterranean against the Italian Navy, Polish pilots fought Italian pilots in North Africa, and the entire Polish 2nd Corps fought in Italy.

bughunter
One could equally say, for simplicity, anything that carried RAF cockades on its wings could be categorized as RAF.

Piotr Mikołajski Author
And then the RAAF, RCAF and RNZAF could be deleted too because why bother 😄

Luc B
The markings are for organisation RAF
The markings are for unit No. xxx (Polish) Sqn.

The markings are for organisation RAF
The markings are for unit No. xxx (Belgian) Sqn.

The addition of (Polish, Belgian,....) to the Sqn indicates the international intent. But they fly for the RAF. (not saying they are RAF, they fly for)

From a distance: Oh this is an RAF Spitfire. Only from closer up. Oh nice from this Squadron (which can be Polish/Belgian/... Squadron)

Ask 100 modelers from a distance what organisation it belongs to: All of them will say RAF

We should keep RAF and make sure all applicable units have the (Polish), (Belgian),... in them. I think not all do

Piotr Mikołajski Author
Can you back up your claims with some facts and not just opinions of what someone thinks when they look at something?

I would particularly ask (again) for some piece of legislation indicating that units from other countries 'flew for the RAF', especially when the British legislation and the RAF itself state that they were separate and independent units from other countries, fighting alongside the RAF.

Following your logic, the separate labels of Australian, Canadian and New Zealand units should also be abolished, since all of them in the ETO/MTO had identical markings to the RAF. BTW, the Fleet Air Arm label should also be removed due to the same reason. Last but not least, during Operation Torch all aircraft had American stars, so let's remove British aviation from the operation altogether.

Carrying such reasoning into modern times, aircraft from NATO countries 'fly for NATO', so why bother with separate insignia when you can use the NATO symbol.

Scalemates is created for modellers to make it easier for them to find the information they need. For example, for those who would like to build a collection of Norwegian aircraft. The proposal to throw everything into the 'RAF bag' makes it very difficult to find such information, with absolutely no benefit in return.

Luc B
i really don't like your aggressive contra productive tone. I'm out of this discussion

Piotr Mikołajski Author
I have supported my point of view with historical facts and legal acts, just as I have indicated why this is relevant to Scalemates users.

It turns out that asking people to stick to historical facts and legal acts in a discussion is an act of aggression, and pointing out the consequences of ill-considered proposals that are making it more difficult for users to use Scalemates is counter-productive.
Seriously...

Adrian R
Historically speaking there's no question that the foreign squadrons were international forces under RAF command. They didn't pledge allegiance to the King, they pledged it to their governments in exile, had their national insignia, decorations, and so on. It is true that the British were paying for all that, since these were the governments in exile, without their own means but that just makes it comparable to the lend lease arrangement. I'm not sure about other countries but since 1944, Polish Air Force was also separate in terms of command and administration. The same case was for Polish Navy for instance, which was given British destroyers, and operated under British command but was a national force. The British even had to alter their legal system to achieve creation of those forces, since it wouldn't be legally possible prior to 1940 while it was possible to enlist foreign people into British Armed Forces.

I get that this can be used for making nationalistic arguments, revision post-war order and what not, and that it can get heated, so I personally don't really think that anything but practicality should inform how these forces are categorized. And since the British were in charge of command, training, and logistics a good case can be made that these were organically part of the RAF even if not politically.

But I've seen here historical arguments being made that are simply incorrect and based on post-war status quo, which in many ways was hoaxed to serve a political goal of both appeasing the Soviet Union and giving the Germans a way out into becoming a western ally. Things like letting the generals (the worst possible historical source) write the history of world war 2 (and I don't only mean German generals but allied as well) and diminishing the role of nations that fell beyond the iron curtain. Even if this is aesthetically distasteful it is politically understandable so I don't want to judge that. But for purely historical reasons we need to be critical of that, especially that there is a significant effort among contemporary historians to debunk much of what was presented as fact those 70 years ago.

Piotr Mikołajski Author
"anything but practicality"

I have written about the practicalities of factual compliance before. We are building a site here for modellers from all over the world to easily find the information they need. Historical and legal matters aside, let's start looking at this issue *from the perspective of the Scalemates user*.

We are talking about units from the armies of seven different countries. What practicality will there be in mixing them with British units?

• Is the user coming here to find out what the command or training structure was?
No. The user wants to find information about the model - what markings it has, from what country, what year and what theatre of operations.

• Will it be easier for a Scalemates user to find something?
No. Once the units of seven countries are mixed with the RAF, the information about the country the unit came from will disappear.

• Does this change improve Scalemates and make it more helpful for the end user?
No.

• Does maintaining separate information for each country require an extraordinary amount of technology or burden the service more?
No.